@Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting
The second largest Mastodon server was bought recently
https://www.theblock.co/post/196940/mask-network-acquires-mastodon-server-pawoo-net
@jaz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting recently being back in december or something liuke that?
@jaz@toot.wales@kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting yep. same company that bought mstdn.jp and mastodon.cloud - they own a decent portion of mastodon
@jaz @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting Consolidation is inevitable. But in an open source industry, there are always alternatives.
@DanaBlankenhorn @jaz @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting
Until the massive instances decide to just talk amongst themselves and block the unaffiliated non-financially-beneficial small and specialist instances.
Federation works while access is everyone to everywhere, but new users might not even realise they are being cut off if 'the bigs' go their own way.
@AlisonW @DanaBlankenhorn @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting I've only seen the opposite, smalls blocking bigs for being too big. All the activity and discussion I've seen from bigs is "more is better" and it's hard to imagine a financial need to defederate small communities with lower traffic.
@jaz @AlisonW @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting No one should be defederated on grounds of lower traffic. I don't think that's even been proposed.
@jaz @DanaBlankenhorn @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting
At issue is funding. Small instances are frequently owner-funded (as is mine) because they are geeks and interested in the concepts.
But like Twitter and its ongoing problems the big 1M+ instances need a revenue source to survive.
Becoming a walled garden is one of their options.
@AlisonW @jaz @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting I think they will all find that a stupid option to take.
every user should have their own instance!
i have a deck about this, i can't handle the coding involved.
https://cloud.payfrit.com/index.php/s/65wQKWWe5CJPqcH
@pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
Price > 0 will divert many users back to Facebook etc., but I vaguely enjoy this concept.
@loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews Personal instances != expensive. Freemium works. Sponsored communities work. Someone WILL solve the equation and fill the gap.
@benpate @loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews the thing that needs to be kept in mind is that to most people, even doing the sign up flow is more Time (a currency in its own right) then they are willing to spend, let alone making a personal instance and managing it.
my personal instance is literally zero "maintenance" and the service (as I picture it) would be also...
@pinkyfloyd @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @loktai @Ronkjeffries @benpate @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @deef @fediversenews
I've looked at what mine is doing every few weeks. It seems to be happy so I'm fine continuing to ignore it.
sometimes i find myself looking at the resource monitor when a post gets a little action but that's just simple curiosity lol
@deef @loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews Yes, and… OSS is notoriously geared towards techies. It needs to be as easy to start as signing up for FB, as safe to use as riding a city bus, and as easy to migrate as switching phone carriers.
@deef @loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews SOMEONE will crack the code. Here’s my take, though the website is still far too techie-centric: https://emissary.social. I’m eager to boost anyone with a different take on this vision 
@benpate @deef @loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews If people were willing to invest as much into learning how to use social media as is required to ride a city bus we would not have this discussion.
city busses are on google maps sir
just saying
@pinkyfloyd @benpate @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
Ah, yes, I’m old it seems. I forgot that buses are on Google maps for some cities, now.
Without snark: Regular people learned to use rather complex, multi modal public transport systems. Even children did.
But today people can’t be bothered to choose an initial instance for a social media platform.
I’m against dumbing down, I’m for better documentation and education.
i really don't think it's a matter of simply choosing an instance...there's currently a bit of a prohibitive learning curve involved with getting started on the Fediverse, which is natural because there's no profit motive to streamline it.
personally i don't think it makes sense to force people to learn all the methods and quirks of a system when it's not too challenging to simply overcome them.
speech and communication are things we should be enabling, not continuing to throw up barriers to better versions.
@pinkyfloyd @benpate @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews A federated, decentralized system with many sources of different types of content is *inherently* more complex than a centralized system and tends to be complicated. It takes some learning and intention to make use of it.
It is only “simple to overcome” if one ignores the concept and nature of the fediverse and why it evolved into a good place.
The fedi can’t be simple.
@pinkyfloyd @benpate @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
The more I think about the comparison with public transport the better I think it is.
Multi modal public transport systems are “federated” in a way and they are complex.
As a society we invested a lot into making them less *complicated* (look at subway maps) and they still need work in that aspect, but using them needs more learning than calling a cab.
@chris @pinkyfloyd @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews Yes, and.. the original point was about safety. You don’t wear a seatbelt on a train or bus because other factors make them safer than cars. Techies overlook that freedom. Good UX doesn’t depend on brittle things like training, docs.
@benpate @pinkyfloyd @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews If the original point was safety I may have jumped on to the discussion too late in the thread. UX should always be safe enough to not do unexpected, unsafe things.
(Of course you can even email your data to scammers.
Do we have this on Mastodon, yet? Maybe as automated interactive AI-driven scam messages? „My name is @Eliza@mstdn.scl and am a Nigerian princess!“)
@benpate @chris @pinkyfloyd @deef @loktai @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
Some buses and coaches do have seat belts and require passengers to use them though.
@AlisonW Sure. But the analogy stands. Education and documentation are not enough for mass adoption.
Grandma wants to share baby photos. She has other things going on and won't be bothered to learn why distributed social networks are better for society.
And, on a side note: I spent the whole summer of 1994 on a bus travelling from the California to Boston, Montana, and more. Slept in my seat and on the bus floor. There was not a single seatbelt in sight. 
this is a silly metaphor that doesn't really apply, public transportation only ferries one sort of data around, human bodies.
@pinkyfloyd @benpate @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews It ferries humans, dogs, people with bicycles, people in wheelchairs, blind people…
It does so by means of differing accessibility to different groups and while catering to different needs (prices, speed, comfort).
People are more or less free to pick and combine means to fulfill their general task of transport. To do so they have to be empowered and learn to make choices.
did you really come here to try to convert some rando on the interwebs that your analogy is a good one?
@pinkyfloyd @benpate @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews But you are wrong and on the Internet…
(Bye)
lmfao
"does not play well with others"
i dunno bruh, you're making it really easy for me to simply discount all opinions of yours.
the fediverse isn't doing anything particularly earth-shattering, it's all been done before, simply in different manners that people have muscle memory for.
it's simply not as complex as you think and i don't understand your motivation for trying to shit on new ideas.
@chris @pinkyfloyd @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews How about this.. as currently designed, Fediverse ISN’T simple. But it COULD be. Email is simple enough, but we haven’t yet smoothed out the edges to make AP user friendly.
to me that is still too generalized...?
i believe it's really only the onboarding part that causes trouble. the whole "instances" thing and trying to explain that to people when that should just be done in the background and eventually will be. and that has an inherent problem in that not all instance admins have motivation to help "fix" the system and i suspect many of them don't want to.
to me that's truly the only real pain point. "usage" of the actual fediverse and associated tools is fine. it's simply a matter of getting the instances to communicate better and more efficiently.
@benpate @pinkyfloyd @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
#Email is a mess on all levels - people just are used to it having a learning curve.
(This weekend’s agenda: figuring out why my MSOs MUA sometimes ignores some images.)
Chosing an instance will always mean to learn that this choice influences your experience. Removing that part of the process will mean centralizing on some monster instances like gmail did for email.
every user should be their own instance.
"choosing an instance" needs to go away.
users can group themselves in all sorts of amazing ways once they are online in the fediverse, why make the first step be such a confusing and unnecessary choice?
you're one of the most negative people i have ever met. are you really trying to help the discussion?
do you have some sort of ulterior motive?
@pinkyfloyd @benpate @deef @loktai @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews I understand the idea of everybody having their own instance (and I agree that it would be interesting).
I am just at a complete loss what architecture you are proposing, and how it would scale without losing what it currently is, socially.
Do you have an example what you mean, compared to email, matrix, jabber or mastodon?
Concerning my attitude: It‘s all in your head.
@pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @loktai @Ronkjeffries @benpate @chris @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @deef @fediversenews your city-provincialism is showing; bus information is not universal.
of course not, but google pretty much is......
@pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @loktai @Ronkjeffries @benpate @chris @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @deef @fediversenews
I lol’d at ‘as easy as buses’ because millions don’t ride buses because they seem difficult. Wanted to say ‘signing up for a fediv acct is already as easy as getting on a bus. That’s the problem’. Which bus? What time? Where’s it stop? How do I pay? vs. Which server? What peer groups? How stable? Special rules?
i never claimed it was as "easy" as busses lol
but it truly could be, should be, and will be, as easy as registering for a centralized social media service.
@pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @loktai @Ronkjeffries @benpate @chris @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @deef @fediversenews I did. And buses aren’t easy enough. Ridership challenges get more attention than routes.
right but in this case busses are the fediverse and google maps is a client; another layer on top that helps users get around using the bus lines.
at least the way i'm visualizing it
I love how we're all still missing the point and talking about busses instead of how this generation of AP technology is too complex for regular people.
Nerds think everyone is as passionate about their interests as they are. But most people won't give a FF about your pet technology. They just want to post cute baby pictures and laugh at memes.
@pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @cascheranno @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @loktai @Ronkjeffries @chris @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @deef @fediversenews
@benpate @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @loktai @Ronkjeffries @chris @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @deef @fediversenews so, you think we’re talking about busing (not a metaphor) and all unaware of usability challenges?
Someone’s not keeping up, and it ain’t us.
I guess analogies are dangerous.
Join the Fediverse certainly should and could be easier. I didn't find it complicated, but I was motivated and had a reasonable idea what to expect. Others will need more guidance or an easier on ramp. But people manage with complicated processes all the time.
i love everything about the last paragraph.
but someone still needs to pay for it.
geeks hosting instances can only survive to a certain point, and i believe we have already far exceeded that point.
exactly and that's a fundamental problem with the discussion as is. there are literally people here that don't want the concept to "be better"
i don't have the coding skills to make it happen. however as a developer i always told my clients "if you can describe the feature, i can make it happen."
i'm just trying to will into existence, the fediverse as i imagine it, and how it would be most useful to me. hopefully enough other people share the same general direction!
@benpate @deef @loktai @pinkyfloyd @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
"as easy to migrate as switching phone carriers"? Not easy, imho!
@benpate
Wildebeest from Cloudflare?
@loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
Yeah. Exactly. I haven't messed with it much, but that's a fantastic example ==> "free", "serverless" instances that anyone can sign up for.
Now, someone out there will make it approachable for non-techies to run their own "instance" without an engineering degree and put a "join now" QR code at the local library, school, McDonalds, church, mosque, or wherever.
@aswath @loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
@benpate @aswath @loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews Last I checked Wildebeest wasn’t free, needs compulsory Cloudflare services for storage. Also no migration in or out, no moderation. It’s a PoC/marketing gimmick, not a real service.
@MetalSamurai
My suggestion was an existence proof (even if a weak one) of
@benpate"s statement. Yes there is a monthly charge & not fully featured. But one could dev an AP "server" for a "Serverless" env & not store 3rd party media. For most single actor instances, it may not cost much. As per moderation, why is there a need for addl mod!? Isn't the actor enough?
@loktai @pinkyfloyd @AlisonW @maegul @DanaBlankenhorn @Ronkjeffries @kimschulz @ngaylinn @jaz @fediversenews
exactly, it doesn't have to be expensive.
i use ootb plermoa on a retail priced DO droplet and mine is only $12 a month.
@AlisonW @jaz @DanaBlankenhorn @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting this is part of the reason why I think there’s a need to “educate” new “fedizens” about the value of decentralisation, and why the signup process is important in how well this is achieved.
Supporting the structure of the fediverse is a duty we all have. Donations, smaller instances, diversity: Up to us.
@maegul @jaz @DanaBlankenhorn @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @ngaylinn @fediversenews @hosting
And why, imho, there should never be a "default" instance as some have proposed!
@AlisonW @maegul @jaz @DanaBlankenhorn @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @fediversenews @hosting Yeah, funneling everyone to one place would have a lot of problematic effects. Probably not compatible with the Fediverse idea. A temporary starter server (or several of them) might be feasible, though.
@AlisonW @jaz @DanaBlankenhorn @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @fediversenews @hosting This is why I think it's so important that the Fediverse invests in helping people migrate accounts quickly, easily, and without losing _anything_.
If a big instance wants to make money to support themselves or make an even better experience—great! Just so long as the users who don't like it can leave. Monetization is fine as long as it's not exploiting a captive audience.
Let them build their gardens, just make sure the walls have doors.
@ngaylinn @AlisonW @jaz @kimschulz @Ronkjeffries @maegul @fediversenews @hosting Can that be incorporated into the licensing?